Dual N Back Observations
I have noticed an increase in alertness and slight mood improvement. I am wondering though, is there a plateau effect? Is the limit of ones dual n back performance reached in 1 month or so? I seem to not be increasing any more past my limit of 5 or so. I simply cannot seem to master 6 dual n back items and I reached my current level of performance in about a month. The past couple weeks is when the plateau kicked in.
? | 3 years ago
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I've working 30 min to a hour of dualN-back a day for about 5 days so far and I'm at 2-n.
It's probably too early to give a full report on what the effect has been, but I will say that what I've experienced (due to expanded working memory gained from the dual n back) is being able to hold in mind concepts as
I read, relate those concepts to what I have already read, and then not lose track of what I'm reading in the present...this, with dense material.
I'm a pretty good reader as is, by dint of a good education -- but it seems I am now using raw brainpower (fluid intelligence) more than
relying on learned information and vocabulary
(chrystalized intelligence/concept mastery) to
get at a text. I feel more of an active reader
without having to tell myself to ooncentrate as
I am already prone to focus than not, which I think comes from having to pay attention to the
visual/auditory demands of dual-n-back. As for IQ test improvements I don't know yet..haven't taken any recently.
This could all be placebo effect, given it's only been 5 days, but already I feel a better ability to hold information in my mind that's hard to write off as placebo. So I'm motivated
to keep going -- especially given I felt like a moron when I first began and couldn't even do
1 back.
It's probably too early to give a full report on what the effect has been, but I will say that what I've experienced (due to expanded working memory gained from the dual n back) is being able to hold in mind concepts as
I read, relate those concepts to what I have already read, and then not lose track of what I'm reading in the present...this, with dense material.
I'm a pretty good reader as is, by dint of a good education -- but it seems I am now using raw brainpower (fluid intelligence) more than
relying on learned information and vocabulary
(chrystalized intelligence/concept mastery) to
get at a text. I feel more of an active reader
without having to tell myself to ooncentrate as
I am already prone to focus than not, which I think comes from having to pay attention to the
visual/auditory demands of dual-n-back. As for IQ test improvements I don't know yet..haven't taken any recently.
This could all be placebo effect, given it's only been 5 days, but already I feel a better ability to hold information in my mind that's hard to write off as placebo. So I'm motivated
to keep going -- especially given I felt like a moron when I first began and couldn't even do
1 back.
milestones | 3 years ago
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cognitivefun | 3 years ago
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I dunno, just to play devil's advocate, it seems like someone could just remember the last words in the sentences, while simply ignoring the meaning of the sentences as they type a copy of them.
gorelando | 3 years ago
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That is to say, speed is measured, but it doesn't seem to necessitate comprehension other than picking out the last word.
gorelando | 3 years ago
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You are right: your reading span on the Daneman & Carpenter RST isn't dependent on your ability to comprehend text. The test does have significant correlation to performance on other tests of reading ability though.
The power of the test comes from working memory demands while requiring lexical processing. A test involving purely tones and shapes will not stress the same processes. In trying to remember the final word in a sentence, the most efficient memory representation would be the word's meaning. Whether you like it or not, there is significant distraction from reading (or re-typing) the words in the next sentence, because they access overlapping pathways. You might be typing without thinking (which might mean that the RST here is weaker than D&C's original) but lexical processes are still activated, because it is automatized -- especially for good readers.
The power of the test comes from working memory demands while requiring lexical processing. A test involving purely tones and shapes will not stress the same processes. In trying to remember the final word in a sentence, the most efficient memory representation would be the word's meaning. Whether you like it or not, there is significant distraction from reading (or re-typing) the words in the next sentence, because they access overlapping pathways. You might be typing without thinking (which might mean that the RST here is weaker than D&C's original) but lexical processes are still activated, because it is automatized -- especially for good readers.
cognitivefun | 3 years ago
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Also, the original study was done at CMU, which should have plenty of effective readers. Nevertheless, reading spans varied significantly across individuals.
That is not to say such a RS implies certain general reading ability, but having an efficient working memory during reading, filtering out irrelevant words and remembering key concepts, spanning several sentences, are strengths of good readers.
Another related (and powerful) test would be recalling pronoun referents, but that is a very difficult one to automate. It's relevance is immediately apparent: suppose you had a play with 10 characters, split into 5 groups of one man and one woman in each, placed in 5 different settings. Suppose then, after the introductory scene, their names are no longer mentioned, and everybody starts talking with "hes" and "shes." It's all easy when you can see their faces. But if the play was all text, most people would quickly get lost in trying to remember whose who (but I admit this case, of 10 people in 5 places, is plainly memory torture, and would probably make a disastrous play).
That is not to say such a RS implies certain general reading ability, but having an efficient working memory during reading, filtering out irrelevant words and remembering key concepts, spanning several sentences, are strengths of good readers.
Another related (and powerful) test would be recalling pronoun referents, but that is a very difficult one to automate. It's relevance is immediately apparent: suppose you had a play with 10 characters, split into 5 groups of one man and one woman in each, placed in 5 different settings. Suppose then, after the introductory scene, their names are no longer mentioned, and everybody starts talking with "hes" and "shes." It's all easy when you can see their faces. But if the play was all text, most people would quickly get lost in trying to remember whose who (but I admit this case, of 10 people in 5 places, is plainly memory torture, and would probably make a disastrous play).
cognitivefun | 3 years ago
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Good answers. I definitely process the text as I'm reading it (kind of imaginatively fun ...), and I'm not so sure that consciously trying to "turn off" the comprehension for extra speed would result in extra speed :P.
gorelando | 3 years ago
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knickerbocker309 | 3 years ago
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Post observations you have made since since you first beginning Dual N Back.These observations can be changes in your daily life, or specific observations made about Dual N Back.For myself,I have noticed that I can grasp complex material much quicker and with less effort.I have also noticed that since I began performing 25 sessions a day,compared to my old regime of about 13,I am beginning to see an even greater improvement in my short term memory.
knickerbocker309 | 3 years ago
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Yuck...awful typos.Post observations you have made since you first began Dual N Back.These observations can be changes in your daily life, or specific observations made about Dual N Back.For myself,I have noticed that I can grasp complex material much quicker and with less effort.I have also noticed that since I began performing 25 sessions a day,compared to my old regime of about 13,I am beginning to see an even greater improvement in my short term memory.
knickerbocker309 | 3 years ago
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I really think that until we have some more empirical evidence to back up the n-back task claims, you can almost certainly rack up most of your new-found abilities to an increased sense of confidence rather than an actual improvement in function or capacity. You "feel" like you can grasp more so you make more of an effort and in turn end up achieving more. The old placebo effect. The irony here is that the end result may be more or less the same :)
I'm surprised though that nothing else of substance has been published to confirm or deny the original Jaeggi-Buschkuehl study. Does setting up a duplicate experiment and getting the results published really take so long?
I'm surprised though that nothing else of substance has been published to confirm or deny the original Jaeggi-Buschkuehl study. Does setting up a duplicate experiment and getting the results published really take so long?
pentagon | 3 years ago
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I'm sure there is quite a bit of placebo effect at work but I'm just relaying honestly what I've experienced. I've trained over at Lumosity.com and though I moved up very well on many of their games and felt "confident", I did not sense any "new found abilities." This is particularly true with their game, "monster garden" where I progressed rapidly, but yet did not sense any cognitive improvement...and, of course, I did yearn to have the feeling of transfer from all task-specific improvement into working memory or general intelligence. On their site, they have various studies to show that their games do this and it all looks very respectable with a neuscientist advisory board and fancy degrees. But the games there didn't seem to work for me, even though I had wanted them to.
I suppose rather than the describing effect of the games on cognitive function (speculative) I should describe the feeling I have when I'm playing the games. The focus required of dual n back is far more intense than most games I've
played and this forcing of attention seems to
last even when I'm not playing the game. It's as if I to double click to get to the website than just click once - that is, there seems to
be a deeper imprint created by the dual n back on memory than w/ most games, including n back.
Lumosity has a nice site, and they have some cool games -- as do a litany of other brain improvement sites. However, I have only been impressed with the observed effects of dual n back at this site, which I agree is probably placebo, but at least it feels real. I'm not here because it's "fun" as in entertainment fun but it's fun b/c I am feeling the effects of the tasks (which are more boring than other
places). But then, if you've ever noticed how many out of shape people work out at expensive gyms and how many in shape people work out at bare bones style gyms -- the body gym to brain gym analogy seems to hold.
I realize what I've written is speculative and we don't know if any brain excersises have measurable effect, how much or if at all...
I suppose rather than the describing effect of the games on cognitive function (speculative) I should describe the feeling I have when I'm playing the games. The focus required of dual n back is far more intense than most games I've
played and this forcing of attention seems to
last even when I'm not playing the game. It's as if I to double click to get to the website than just click once - that is, there seems to
be a deeper imprint created by the dual n back on memory than w/ most games, including n back.
Lumosity has a nice site, and they have some cool games -- as do a litany of other brain improvement sites. However, I have only been impressed with the observed effects of dual n back at this site, which I agree is probably placebo, but at least it feels real. I'm not here because it's "fun" as in entertainment fun but it's fun b/c I am feeling the effects of the tasks (which are more boring than other
places). But then, if you've ever noticed how many out of shape people work out at expensive gyms and how many in shape people work out at bare bones style gyms -- the body gym to brain gym analogy seems to hold.
I realize what I've written is speculative and we don't know if any brain excersises have measurable effect, how much or if at all...
milestones | 3 years ago
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I couldn't agree more. There is something subtley different about dual n back from any other "brain training" activity I have ever engaged in. It requires a focus that is almost unpleasant in the beginning, at least for me but then seems to produce an improvement that may be transfering to other cognitive domains.
The analogy about the gyms is one of the best I have ever heard and very true in my experience. Marketers in either brain or body improvement programs feel the need to create flash to bring in the novices, but the really "hard core" will work their brains or bodies in a setting that produces results regardless of the prettiness of the landscape.
The analogy about the gyms is one of the best I have ever heard and very true in my experience. Marketers in either brain or body improvement programs feel the need to create flash to bring in the novices, but the really "hard core" will work their brains or bodies in a setting that produces results regardless of the prettiness of the landscape.
? | 3 years ago
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? | 3 years ago
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My entire brain was literally fried by my third main/2nd major psychotic episode. I somehow found out about n-back, as im studying for a phd, and like everyone else, read around a lot, sometimes with major divergencies. Post psychosis, even making more than one cup of tea is a majorly confusing process. Though, i have noticed that after eventually geeting past the gimmicky stage, I do seem to notice errors in relations an assumptions are more clear, as well as actually being able to notice things that seem obvious, that were not before.
? | 2 days ago
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i learned of the n-back benefit last summer, worked out on this nifty little test quite a bit then moved on, did not try to crank up the numbrer but greatly improved on speed .. and suddenly in the mood again, returned it now
after 6 months, i still had most of the facility i had gained, it really stuck with me .. so that's very motivating, makes it worthwhile
in daily life as well, especially while i was getting better to begin with first time around, i noticed improved concentration, it is striking when you experience it increasing how important concentration is to analytical and problem-solving skills
after 6 months, i still had most of the facility i had gained, it really stuck with me .. so that's very motivating, makes it worthwhile
in daily life as well, especially while i was getting better to begin with first time around, i noticed improved concentration, it is striking when you experience it increasing how important concentration is to analytical and problem-solving skills
Hallucigenia | 2 days ago
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