> 9 back grovelling
> 9 back grovelling
There are a few of us who have been at 9 back for some time now. Cogfun, if you're out there, please give us 10 back and above for motivation - on the multimodal test, if nothing else!
cevapcici | 6 months ago
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I have scored 75% on 8-back--and 67% on 9-back April 16th. Three and a half weeks ago I was between 2 and 4-back, when I started playing everyday (playing for the first time since Jan/Dec when I started Multin-back and got up to 3 or 4-back). Once I improved on 6-back, I was at 9-back a week later having scored over 70% on 8-back twice, in order to keep the game challenging to memory rather than attention. There is something about the game that makes it easy to improve after 6-back because using time-estimation a familiar input is probably correct. The "difficulty" here comes from extending the delay period, which is rather different from play at less-than around 6-back. It is thus important to increase the maximum level by at least 50-75% or more (25-back?) in order to offer the opportunity to play challenging levels where memory limitations prevent significant accuracy at higher levels.
? | 5 months ago
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Wow, triple 9 back at above 70% that's insane. How long did it take to achieve that (I'm not implying that your achievement is strictly a function of time as most of us could probably spend years n backing and still be very hard pressed to achieve that, just curious)?.
moeman | 6 months ago
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I've been doing dual n back for about a year and a half. Went through a two month period of heavy tnbing a few months back, but have definitely spent far more time on dual. Have been stuck around 9 back in both for a while and think that it's because there's no higher level to aim for.
btw this site originally only offered dnb to 7-back, as the creator thought that no-one would be able to get any higher.
btw this site originally only offered dnb to 7-back, as the creator thought that no-one would be able to get any higher.
cevapcici | 6 months ago
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@cevapcici Im only at 6-back, and yes, I can relate to what you say, however It is not a calm state what I feel, the task tends to distort my sense of reality and make me sleepy/groggy after some time.
LarvaMaster | 6 months ago
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since ur at 9 back and uve been playing for over 1 1/2 years, i was wondering if you noticed that you are a calmer person? ive noticed after long sessions of nback im very calm afterwards. can anybody relate, have any stories, comments, ideas about this?
? | 6 months ago
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DNB training requires theta wave activity for focus and proper WM maintenance. Theta activity is associated with emotional stability.
The connection is pretty clear. You've changed your predominant brainwave pattern through DNB training.
The connection is pretty clear. You've changed your predominant brainwave pattern through DNB training.
? | 6 months ago
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I'm at dual 9 back as well. I wouldn't mind seeing a dual 10 back here for the purposes of stretching, though I wouldn't say that I have mastered 9 yet. I'd also like to see dual 10 (and may as well offer even higher n levels) to the site.
As far as the WM theta wave connection, I would
have thought that either alpha or low beta would be optimal brain wave for WM,creativity, and problem solving based on the little I've read about this. I thought theta was the a-d-d space cadet band that's good for meditation and
inner awareness, but not so good for staying sharp for cognitively demanding tasks. I'm not very informed on this, though. I did read something about gamma (the fastest brain wave pattern) being shown for heavy meditators -- I could probably find the source for this if I looked.
Given problem solving and wm are so closely related, you'd think WM and problem solving activity would share the same brain wave pattern...for doing arithmetic problems and the like beta is what shows up most often on eeg but yet studies show wm/theta connection
which is curious.
As far as the WM theta wave connection, I would
have thought that either alpha or low beta would be optimal brain wave for WM,creativity, and problem solving based on the little I've read about this. I thought theta was the a-d-d space cadet band that's good for meditation and
inner awareness, but not so good for staying sharp for cognitively demanding tasks. I'm not very informed on this, though. I did read something about gamma (the fastest brain wave pattern) being shown for heavy meditators -- I could probably find the source for this if I looked.
Given problem solving and wm are so closely related, you'd think WM and problem solving activity would share the same brain wave pattern...for doing arithmetic problems and the like beta is what shows up most often on eeg but yet studies show wm/theta connection
which is curious.
milestones | 6 months ago
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As the study suggested, it isn't a matter of what level one has reached, but rather whether one is being challenged by the task and how long one persists at it that matters.
However, after many, many months of not playing with the J-B version here, I've dropped by three levels, from 8 to 5. The issue, moreover, seems to be that my mind isn't dredging up the information quickly enough, not necessarily that I find the task difficult.
I think this goes to show that the DNB task is limited as such and it probably will not show linear gains with time in IQ.
At any rate, with cogfun taking the deist position, I don't think any changes will reveal themselves any time soon.
BW has fills the niche, meanwhile...
However, after many, many months of not playing with the J-B version here, I've dropped by three levels, from 8 to 5. The issue, moreover, seems to be that my mind isn't dredging up the information quickly enough, not necessarily that I find the task difficult.
I think this goes to show that the DNB task is limited as such and it probably will not show linear gains with time in IQ.
At any rate, with cogfun taking the deist position, I don't think any changes will reveal themselves any time soon.
BW has fills the niche, meanwhile...
argumzio | 6 months ago
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"As the study suggested, it isn't a matter of what level one has reached, but rather whether one is being challenged by the task and how long one persists at it that matters.
However, after many, many months of not playing with the J-B version here, I've dropped by three levels, from 8 to 5. The issue, moreover, seems to be that my mind isn't dredging up the information quickly enough, not necessarily that I find the task difficult. I think this goes to show that the DNB task is limited as such and it probably will not show linear gains with time in IQ."
I tend to agree with you.
My thinking about practicing dual n back is that it will help working memory, but once you get to a reasonably high level of working memory (as reflected say, by level of n with dual n back) then from there on training does not help facilitate higher order (abstract) thinking or speed of retrieval of knowledge from long term memory storage.
It seems WM matters most if it's weak. That is, WM can depress intellectual functioning if one's WM is deficient (and/or discrepant from other abilities), but very high levels of WM will probably not be an advantage by itself. At a certain point practicing working memory tasks like DNB will help one's working memory, but how will increasingly higher levels of wm help overall cognition? We don't know yet.
If WM underlies G, the answer would be that intellectual improvement continues on and on with WM improvement training tasks; but if something else (like ps) underlies G, then WM improvement (especially at higher levels of n back) is likely to be limited in its overall offerings.
My personal opinion is DNB might be better for remedial purposes and for staving off short term memory loss that comes with aging rather than as improvement regimen for the already gifted set who posses already strong working memories. But then, studies need to prove this is so or not. This issue becomes confounded as well by the problem of measuring the G factor at the higher levels.
However, after many, many months of not playing with the J-B version here, I've dropped by three levels, from 8 to 5. The issue, moreover, seems to be that my mind isn't dredging up the information quickly enough, not necessarily that I find the task difficult. I think this goes to show that the DNB task is limited as such and it probably will not show linear gains with time in IQ."
I tend to agree with you.
My thinking about practicing dual n back is that it will help working memory, but once you get to a reasonably high level of working memory (as reflected say, by level of n with dual n back) then from there on training does not help facilitate higher order (abstract) thinking or speed of retrieval of knowledge from long term memory storage.
It seems WM matters most if it's weak. That is, WM can depress intellectual functioning if one's WM is deficient (and/or discrepant from other abilities), but very high levels of WM will probably not be an advantage by itself. At a certain point practicing working memory tasks like DNB will help one's working memory, but how will increasingly higher levels of wm help overall cognition? We don't know yet.
If WM underlies G, the answer would be that intellectual improvement continues on and on with WM improvement training tasks; but if something else (like ps) underlies G, then WM improvement (especially at higher levels of n back) is likely to be limited in its overall offerings.
My personal opinion is DNB might be better for remedial purposes and for staving off short term memory loss that comes with aging rather than as improvement regimen for the already gifted set who posses already strong working memories. But then, studies need to prove this is so or not. This issue becomes confounded as well by the problem of measuring the G factor at the higher levels.
milestones | 6 months ago
Reply
holy good lord, people. 9-back? question: how long did it take to get to that? (i'm on my 3rd day of dualnbacking. 2-back was easy, but that just means i've been on 3-back the whole time and have been pwned each time).
i find this thread very interesting, though. especially the recent argum/milestones posts on this being useful specifically for those with working memory 'issues' .. and that is me in a nutshell (been tested with an iq around 3sigma, but can't remember what i was talking to someone about 20 seconds ago). i agree with the reasoning, and am hoping this helps!
i wonder if that would also indicate that for people who have difficulties with attention span, it's the practice time that's important, regardless of n level, as long as it's forcing you to pay attention.
like (simplistically) if i'm on a treadmill, i can increase the incline to make it harder or not, but as long as my heart rate is up for 30 minutes i'm getting what i need.
(unless some of you can now just do n-backing in your sleep, while watching tv AND doing dishes?)
i find this thread very interesting, though. especially the recent argum/milestones posts on this being useful specifically for those with working memory 'issues' .. and that is me in a nutshell (been tested with an iq around 3sigma, but can't remember what i was talking to someone about 20 seconds ago). i agree with the reasoning, and am hoping this helps!
i wonder if that would also indicate that for people who have difficulties with attention span, it's the practice time that's important, regardless of n level, as long as it's forcing you to pay attention.
like (simplistically) if i'm on a treadmill, i can increase the incline to make it harder or not, but as long as my heart rate is up for 30 minutes i'm getting what i need.
(unless some of you can now just do n-backing in your sleep, while watching tv AND doing dishes?)
hedone | 5 months ago
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Well, it can take months (3-4 days a week) or you can never get there no matter how long you've been at it (some plateau at n=5).
The real issue is persistence, not time. The more you persist, the more results, and greater performance, you will see.
The brain has an endless chunking capacity; learn how to use your natural chunking tendencies (this isn't a "strategy", but really quite "intuitive") and you should see phenomenal gains. Don't make the process a rote one!
Best of luck!
The real issue is persistence, not time. The more you persist, the more results, and greater performance, you will see.
The brain has an endless chunking capacity; learn how to use your natural chunking tendencies (this isn't a "strategy", but really quite "intuitive") and you should see phenomenal gains. Don't make the process a rote one!
Best of luck!
? | 5 months ago
Reply
There is also the semi-paradoxical case of those who have been assigned with a phenomenally high g (>3 sigma) and yet are diagnosed with AD(H)D, a diagnosis in keeping with poor WM functioning.
It would appear that benefits will most markedly be shown for these individuals and the "older" people who are feeling a little under the weather due to the currently irremediable, yet somewhat mitigable, entropy that is aging. (We could also generally include those with WM deficits.)
However, with crab modes as an experimental development, we may see a slight change in what can be done, if it proves to engage the parietal cortices due to the requirement that one manipulate the data/stimuli given. I think we are touching on fruitful territory, provided that we don't become comfortable in keeping the all-too-familiar routines sharp whilst not exploring the newer (i.e., challenging) possibilities, which is all that we are doing when we are "stuck" at some n-level, doing it day-in and day-out.
We must keep in mind that DNB only at the initial stages demonstrated increases in gF, that is, the capacity to solve problems without recourse to acquired knowledge. Thus, we should focus on ways not to retain skills (plugging away at whatever n-level of your pleasing) but rather on developing new, unfamiliar skills that are based on variations of the DNB scheme.
This is exactly why I think Brain Workshop is the best (and only) choice. If the competitive aspect is a must, then I urge those here to bring this idea up at the BW group forum to set it into motion. I can't imagine it being difficult to implement.
It would appear that benefits will most markedly be shown for these individuals and the "older" people who are feeling a little under the weather due to the currently irremediable, yet somewhat mitigable, entropy that is aging. (We could also generally include those with WM deficits.)
However, with crab modes as an experimental development, we may see a slight change in what can be done, if it proves to engage the parietal cortices due to the requirement that one manipulate the data/stimuli given. I think we are touching on fruitful territory, provided that we don't become comfortable in keeping the all-too-familiar routines sharp whilst not exploring the newer (i.e., challenging) possibilities, which is all that we are doing when we are "stuck" at some n-level, doing it day-in and day-out.
We must keep in mind that DNB only at the initial stages demonstrated increases in gF, that is, the capacity to solve problems without recourse to acquired knowledge. Thus, we should focus on ways not to retain skills (plugging away at whatever n-level of your pleasing) but rather on developing new, unfamiliar skills that are based on variations of the DNB scheme.
This is exactly why I think Brain Workshop is the best (and only) choice. If the competitive aspect is a must, then I urge those here to bring this idea up at the BW group forum to set it into motion. I can't imagine it being difficult to implement.
argumzio | 6 months ago
Reply
"
At any rate, with cogfun taking the deist position, I don't think any changes will reveal themselves any time soon."
Is anyone in contact with cogfun? I would donate to have the task modified - it's more motivating for me to be in competition with others.
cevapcici | 6 months ago
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These are the only two contacts of which I am aware: http://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=whacked_new and I do not know (were my guess correct) if cogfun would take kindly to my right identification of him.
argumzio | 6 months ago
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Damn bizarre spam protection!
Here's the rest of what I was talking about:
http://www.youtube.com/user/cognitivefun
This is the one of which I am uncertain.
Here's the rest of what I was talking about:
http://www.youtube.com/user/cognitivefun
This is the one of which I am uncertain.
argumzio | 6 months ago
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? | 6 months ago
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i just read about the theta and alpha waves on an meditation site, and it says were in beta, we hope to get through alpha through meditation, and the ultimate goal is theta but it takes years to get there through exteneded practice of meditation... it seems N-back is a quicker method to theta waves
NBack4UrBraneZ | 6 months ago
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